The Other Side
The Charity Freelancer's Podcast | Where Charity Experience meets Freelance Success
Each week, Jane Curtis chats with individuals who've made the leap to freelance or self employment from the charity sector and in doing so uncovers invaluable practical tips and incredible insights firsthand.
Whether you're considering making the move or you're already on your freelance journey, or you’re just nosey and want to know what goes on behind the scenes of well known freelance businesses… you're in the right place.
The Other Side
Cindy Wagman - From Accidental Consultant to Fractional Business Coach
What if you could build a six-figure consulting business while still having time for the life you want? Cindy Wagman takes us on her fascinating journey from charity professional to thriving business coach who's helped over 100 nonprofit consultants create profitable, values-driven practices.
Cindy shares how she became an "accidental consultant" during maternity leave when her mentor suggested negotiating a contract instead of accepting a traditional job offer. With remarkable candour, she reveals the moment she shifted from feeling like she needed to "beg" for opportunities to confidently stating her terms—and how this fundamental mindset change transformed her career.
The conversation explores Cindy's evolution from running a six-person consultancy to developing her Fractional Fundraiser Academy (soon to be rebranded as the Non-Profit Fractional Operating System). Rather than continuing to grow her team when demand increased, she chose a different path: teaching experienced professionals how to deliver the same services independently. This pivot allowed her to scale her impact without sacrificing the quality of life she'd built.
Cindy's practical approach to work-life balance truly stands out. She details her strategy of alternating "CEO weeks" dedicated to deep work with client-facing weeks for meetings and connections. For those struggling with the "always available" mentality common in the charity sector, her framework offers an alternative that prioritises both productivity and personal wellbeing.
Cindy's advice on warming up your network, understanding your numbers, and letting go of the "workaholic" identity provides a roadmap for building a sustainable business aligned with your values. As she wisely notes, "focus on what you want, what you need right now out of consulting, and try to quiet the rest of the noise out there."
Cindy's always happy to chat with people exploring fractional consulting
Connect with her on LinkedIn and check out her private podcast Fracture.
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Jane Curtis helps charity professionals transition from 9-5 employment to flexible and profitable freelance careers.
With over 20 years in the charity sector, she led teams that raised tens of millions of pounds from event fundraising before launching her own business in 2020.
She supported over 100 event fundraisers through her membership programme during the pandemic and now offers her signature "Charity Freelancing Course" programme alongside a high touch 1:1 programme for consultants, coaches and freelancers who want to be making more money, working fewer hours doing what they love and in person events such as The Rich & Restored Retreat. Jane also offers occassional strategic events consultancy to charities.
Known for her positive, creative approach and calm, no-nonsense style, Jane is a mum of two humans and one dog. She loves swimming, cycling, avocados and being by the sea.
Ready to transform your charity expertise into a profitable freelance career? Join Jane's Feel Good Freelancing community.
Connect here:
The Other Side: The Charity Freelancer's Podcast explores the journey from c...
Welcome to the other side, the Charity Freelancers Podcast. I'm Jane Curtis, and this is where we explore the journey from charity professional to thriving freelancer or business owner. Each week I chat with individuals who've made this leap from the charity sector, sharing invaluable practical tips and incredible insights firsthand. Whether you're considering making the move or you're already on your freelance journey or you're just nosy like me and want to know what goes on behind the scenes of well-known freelance businesses, you're in the right place. So grab yourself a coffee, settle in, and let's dive in to today's conversation. And today I'm joined by Cindy Wagman, who helps seasoned nonprofit pros build six-figure consulting businesses without the burnout. A former in-house leader, turns business coach, she's the founder of Cindy Wagman Consulting and the non-profit fractional network, and has guided over a hundred consultants to grow profitable values-driven practices. She's the best-selling author of Raise It, co-host of Confessions with Jess and Cindy, and host of Fracture, a private podcast for non-profit fractional execs, ready to stop fixing broken systems and start building something better. So, Cindy, welcome live and direct from Toronto.
Cindy Wagman:Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to reach out.
Jane Curtis:And I could just tell from that conversation this was going to be a really good, juicy episode. Because there aren't that many of us doing what we're doing out there. So I think I felt a real sense of kinship.
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, there's when I started consulting for consultants in that sort of like meta uh perspective, or you know, what when I started doing it, there were even fewer of us. Um, and now there's a good handful. There's a good handful. And I was so happy to discover you, I think, on LinkedIn. Um, because everyone I know is in North America. And so now hopefully we can bridge some of the community across across the pond, as they say. Okay, exactly.
Jane Curtis:I think there's there's so much that we can learn from one another. It's really exciting. Um, so what I'd like to know is what was your kind of motivation going way back to when you worked in-house, what was your motivation behind leaving? When when did that happen as well? Like between like from leaving 95 employment to going. Yeah.
Cindy Wagman:Yeah. I so I kind of was an accidental consultant. So I was in-house, I was the director of development at a at the business school in Toronto. There are more than one business school, but the the biggest business school in Toronto. Um, and so I was director of development and I was on Mat Leave with my second kid. And during Mat Leave, I had coffee with my mentor, Lori Wilcox, who uh is I'm just so forever grateful to. So Lori and I had coffee. I think I left my son with uh, I think we had a nanny at that point. And uh she said uh she she actually approached me. She said, There's this organization, they're looking for someone to run a capital campaign. Are you interested in the job? And uh it was a really great organization. It was a really great campaign, but I wasn't really looking for another job. And they didn't really have the budget to pay me at least what I was making in-house at the business school. Um, and Lori actually guided me and she said, Well, what if you negotiated it as a contract, like as a consultant? So we know what their budget is. Why don't you ask for that at three days a week? And we do this for two years, see how it goes, etc. Now, what that looked like was I was asking for basically more money than I was making in-house five days a week for three days a week of work for two-year contract with a month, it was a monthly retainer. And I felt a little audacious asking for it because up until that point in my career, I always felt like I was, you know, that feeling when you're applying for jobs and you're so nervous and you're you you feel like you're almost begging, like, pick me, pick me. Well, this was a complete shift. And I was like, here are my terms, take it, take it or leave it. And they said yes. So that is actually how I started. Um, that was my first contract. I ended up doing work with them for five years, um, slowly winding down the time commitment. And six months in I took six months of just working part-time again. My my son was, I think around nine months when I started. Yeah. So I was like, I'm just gonna work three days a week for six months, and that sounds pretty cool. Um, and then I started to think, okay, how do I build this into a business? And that's how it all started.
Jane Curtis:I love that. I love that you really sort of owned it from the beginning, and I love that audacity, you know, just taking it and just going with it because it you that can take some from my experience, that can take some time uh to shift into that. It's such a different approach, isn't it? To it's your an employee. Yeah.
Cindy Wagman:It's so hard. It's such a different mindset. I like I said, I had Lori who really helped me through that. And then as I was exploring the opportunity, I did meet with other consultants and their experience also gave me a lot of confidence. But it is very, you show up very differently. So I'm so grateful to the mentors and guidance I received at that time because I was like, I don't know what this looks like. I don't know anything. And you know, Lori gave me contract templates or like, you know, she sh, I actually think I was subcontracted with her first. Um, and she just really made it so easy for me. Amazing.
Jane Curtis:That's what you need. You need some a champion in your corner for sure. Um, so tell me a bit about where you got the kind of more of the idea for your business and how it kind of grew. Was it very um, did you have a real focus for it? Was it a bit more organic? What how did that work?
Cindy Wagman:Yeah. So I knew I wanted to work with small organizations. I had come, my background is in small organizations. That's how I started in fundraising. Um I wrote a thesis on feminist fundraising when I was in university. So, like I had a real sense of like I wanted to be doing grassroots type work. And I, so that was the thing. That was the my like touchstone, my north star. Um and what I found is I was starting to work with those organizations, and I was like, okay, consultants do fundraising plans, they help hire staff, they sometimes do coaching. And so I started offering those things. And really quickly, I discovered small organizations don't need a plan, they don't need more ideas because there's no one there to implement it. They have limited budgets for staff. And so when I would hire someone for them, they wouldn't last so long. And we see really high turnover in small organizations in those roles. And the coaching, I would give an ex like I would meet with an executive director and we'd talk about their fundraising plan strategy and what they should do between now and our next meeting and who to reach out to and all that. And they wouldn't do it. And so in 2017, so I started in 2015. By 2017, I had felt a little frustrated with the model. I felt like people like I'm not actually serving the organizations I want to be serving in a meaningful way. So I hired or brought on like a summer student and I think an intern to my business. And we started toying with this idea of like, what if we did the fundraising work for them? So not just give advice, but actually roll up our sleeves and get things done. So that worked really well, and I experimented a lot at that time. I can't even remember what we were charging, but I think my today me would, you know, be shocked. Uh, it was low. But um, the idea was I started bringing people onto my team who were less experienced, but I would supervise them and they would do the fundraising work with so we combined their sort of day-to-day implementation with my strategic oversight. And that grew. And by 2020, uh, we had a small office in downtown Toronto. Um, we had a team, I think there were six of us, if you include me. And we did that and some other, you know, systems work for organizations. And it was going really well. It was great, actually. I had like middle managers, the whole thing. And then during COVID, things felt really, really heavy. Um, I have two school-aged kids. Um, I was working more, my husband was working more. Um, and the demand for my work and the work of my team was growing. So I could, I if I wanted to meet the demand, I needed to grow my business, I needed to bring on more people. And that just felt debilitating. I was like, I can't, I can't do that. So I had this idea. What if instead of me hiring these junior people and someone to oversee them with experience? What if I taught experienced people how to run this sort of like business model where they come in, their experience so they have the strategic oversight, but they also do the implementation. And that was at the end of 2021. And you'll a lot of how my business has evolved over time is truly an evolution. Like I like to take confident baby steps, I'll say. Like I move forward, I act quickly, but in small ways. So I think I recruited two or three people. I almost treated it like I was hiring them. But instead of me hiring them, I said, I'm gonna teach you, I'm gonna coach you through how to run this business. And uh I didn't even take payment from them until I found them clients and all this. I was like, I have no idea if this is gonna work, but uh it did, and they got fully booked, and so I recruited a couple more people, and then in 2023, I created a formal curriculum around this, which now is um well, the next again, it's continuing to evolve. At the time, it was the Fractional Fundraiser Academy. Um, and I started training people, and now I've had about 85 folks uh in our program. And the next iteration in January 2026, it will be the nonprofit fractional operating system. So it's not just for fundraisers. And uh, I'd say like we have a pretty solid curriculum and community now, and that's pretty much what I do is I teach people how to run fractional businesses in our sector.
Jane Curtis:Uh, that's so I find that so so fascinating and really inspiring. Um, do you still work with with any of those um like associates who were with you during COVID? Does that are they still with you?
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so um not in my business. I would say of okay, of the five who were employed, three, two were in more in the tech and systems space. And so uh, which I was like, that's not really what I want my business to be known for. So I actually like as part of their um exit package, yeah. I basically gave them the IP to the work that we were doing, and they're consulting on their own. I know they're both really busy and successful. Uh, one, Betty, who uh was doing more of the fundraising work, she is still in my network. So she started her own consulting business. She's still in our network and actually my guest coach when I'm not available in the community. And she has a small team, including one of the other employees that I had at that time, Kira, works part-time with Betty and also as a yoga instructor. And then uh one person exited uh fundraising. Oh, well, I think she just took a break. I actually haven't heard from her in a little while, but I think she was gonna come back to fundraising after a little while.
Jane Curtis:So yeah. Yeah. Um, so tell me a bit about how you came to the conclusion that what you're offering is what was sort of needed. I guess it kind of came over time, right? But um yeah, I I think that's it really interesting for people who perhaps haven't aren't as far down the journey as perhaps you and I are. But like, how do they test that kind of concept?
Cindy Wagman:Yeah. So to me, like there's the sort of like market research type testing, like asking around. Um and but at the at the end of the day, the only way to test something is to try it. Yeah, like you have to move into action. There is only so much, like now. I know people are I I love AI, but like I know people are using AI for a lot of market research and like all those kinds of things. You have to talk to people, but more importantly, you have to try it. You have to put yourself out there, you have to give it a fighting chance, stick with it for a little bit, and then evolve it. See what's working, what's not working, and how you can better like I constantly am asking myself, how can I better serve the people I serve or the organizations I serve based on what's going well and what's not going well. Excuse me. So for me, it's action is the most important part of how to move forward. Um, and then yeah, just keep testing, like I said, confident baby steps. Like take those steps. They don't have to be huge. Um and the beautiful thing about running our own businesses or freelancing is that we can always change our mind. Sure. But we're not, I've spoken to now like thousands of consultants, and everyone is afraid that like if I do this or if I put myself out there as this, everyone's paying attention. And if I if I'm not successful or if things change and I take a different direction, everyone is gonna be judging me. Yeah, that's simply not true, right? Like, truly, I think I've felt judged in the 10 years that I've been doing business. I think I felt judged twice. Yeah, twice. And like I said, I've changed things around a lot. If you always hold this idea of like, how can I find the win-win between what my clients need and what I need, you'll come, you'll come through to figure it out. Figure it out. Yeah.
Jane Curtis:I love that. And I think so true what you said about it's not nothing's permanent. And I always say this as well to my members. It's just like you don't have to be doing um what you're doing now in a year's time, six months' time, even, you know, you you just just go forward and and keep taking that action because think often we get frozen, don't we? And we're sort of paralyzed in kind of in that indecision. And is that the right way or is that the right way? And oh my god, when I think about how many U-turns I've taken and how many things I've launched and have never seen the light of day, you know, um, how many ways, you know, or we're complete failures, or like maybe not a failure, but not nearly what I imagined.
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, right. Like, I I truly think I've tried almost everything. I have had like major flops with things like Facebook ads, and then I've come back to them and had great success with them. Um, I wrote a book, I have many podcasts. Um I like I had an online course, which I would say was like moderately successful, but what it led allowed me to do was take the curriculum and teach it to like through foundations to organizations. And that was actually very successful. So like it is a very winding path. It is. And just keep learning, keep figuring things out, and um you but you gotta get on the path, right? You got you gotta move through it.
Jane Curtis:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, in terms of your kind of business setup, you have your course uh for consultants um and your community. Is that how you make your money for your business or are you also actively consulting as well? How's your yeah?
Cindy Wagman:I'm no longer actively consulting. Um, I do volunteer with one organization just for to keep myself in it. But um I, yeah, that is my primary revenue. So the program itself uh is where I teach people basically this fractional operating system. Um, and that's nine months. And then after that, people at that point have all the tools they need to be successful. They have their businesses up and running and clients, but a lot of them choose to stay in our community through a monthly membership uh because they have continued access to not just the curriculum, but our, you know, lunch and learns and office hours and all these other great things. Um I also have a virtual summit, which is like more marketing than revenue, but it's profitable. Um it's called Fractional Shift. It's in January. And uh I will be introducing as actually two little new things. One is gonna be like a very inexpensive um AI bot. I'm just training it now. It's called Penny the Fractional Proposal Pro. So it's designed to help fractional consultants take um their sales disc or discovery call transcripts and turn it into a proposal.
Jane Curtis:Oh no.
Cindy Wagman:And yeah, so and it's I so far I'm really impressed with its outputs. So I'm still testing that, but that will be very, very affordable. And then I realize that there's this sort of, and this is probably more similar uh to what you do, is there's a sort of gap in services uh with like people who are thinking about leaving in-house, but not quite ready to make that leap. And so it's gonna be called the exit strategy, and it's basically like kind of how to get your ducks in a row. So it's not about how to start a business, it's not about like registering your business or all that kind of stuff. It's like how do you mentally prepare yourself and kind of warm up your network to be able to move confidently from in-house to uh fractional consulting? So that those two things are coming. I don't have timelines on them yet.
Jane Curtis:No, that's good. You keep it, keep it open, keep it flexible. Um, so tell me a bit about like what's a normal uh working day in your world, like yeah, it's a there's no such thing.
Cindy Wagman:Now, I will say, compared to a lot of people listening, my business is very different. So um, because I'm not doing direct work with organizations anymore, um my and one of the things I've done, and I feel very privileged to share this, is I have on weeks and off weeks. I call them like CEO weeks. So every other week, the only meetings I take that week are my my community meetings where I'm coaching in my community. So that's usually about two hours a week. Uh, and I have an internal meeting I have an assistant to, and we we meet during those times. So that's every other week where my days are focused on doing things in the business. So right now I'm updating curriculum. Um, we're working on a rebrand, uh, which is rolling out, as I said, and um, and I'm working on AI projects. So, really learning how I can use AI for my business so that I can also bring that to my community. So those are the deep work things that actually take quite a bit of time and I need a lot of focus for them. Um I do take a lot of calls, uh, but I've tried to really those don't happen in those off weeks. Um, and so the on weeks typically I do have a lot more meetings and calls. Um, I do podcast interviews like this. I'm just looking at my schedule right now. This week is a little quiet, but like this week I've had two, I have two podcast interviews and a webinar. Um, I have my client hours and then just you know, yeah, like people want to meet and ask, get advice. Like I just do a lot of sort of virtual coffee meetings um during the rest of the time.
Jane Curtis:So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love that. That's such a dream, isn't it? Situation to be able to kind of be the real yeah, controller of your It is.
Cindy Wagman:And it's really so I have a I I had my final one-on-one coaching client who I just wrapped up with, um, she runs a very different business. Um, she does so shall say like mid-level fundraising through um what five-minute fundraising asks over the phone. So basically, she does like phone-based fundraising for like arts and arts type organizations. Anyway, so she runs these call rooms where she has like her staff who are running who are like calling donors and all that. So she was feeling really overwhelmed because she was just like constantly moving from one room to the other and just felt like she had no control over her schedule. Even if you are like that, where you feel like you constantly have to be available for clients. We still took a step back and said, okay, let's try and block more time off. So I think she has like Wednesdays are her CEO days, and she doesn't take meetings unless, like, so I think she does Wednesday lunches, CEO lunch, um, with friends and stuff. So you still it again, our sector has trained us to be available all the time and automatically respond to all the emails. Those things rob us of the reasons we started consulting in the first place. So um you can, regardless of your business model, and I've worked with a lot of different kinds of consultants until I've specialized in fractional, you still can do some of what I talked about, maybe not a full week of no meetings, but there's lots of ways that you can build more of that space into your schedule. Yeah, absolutely.
Jane Curtis:I totally agree. And you have to like hold that so tight, I found that you know, be really boundaried about it. And um, because no one else is gonna tell you to do that, right? It's really got to come from within.
Cindy Wagman:No one else, and not even that, like our sector trains us to ask for more always, right? Like your clients are always gonna be pushing around. Can you do this this one more thing, or can you do this? Like that is the mentality of the sector that um we have to deal with, and we're not being bad people when we say no. Yeah, and usually those boundaries allow us to do better work and get better results for our clients. I agree, agree. Yeah.
Jane Curtis:Um, tell me about uh a challenge um that you faced since you've worked for yourself. Or yeah, yeah.
Cindy Wagman:Oh my goodness. Um I would say, okay, I'm sure there have been many, like I said before, like I've invested in things that I haven't seen pay uh payout and all of that. But I think actually one of the biggest challenges is letting go of the workaholic um monoters. Like I just for so long tied my work to my identity and who I am, and that I'm a high achiever and I'm ambitious, and I still am all of those things, but I thought that that translated to constantly having to work. And so, even working for myself, I would wake up at 5 a.m. and I'd sit at my computer for an hour before the kids woke up and I'd you know do some something. I'd work on the weekends, I'd always bring my computer everywhere, like and I didn't mind it because I thought that that's I thought that that is what success looked like. And so I really and and I mean the hard reality is like I didn't know who I was with at work, and so I've really had to train myself to be like you can take more time, and you know, my kids are older now. I spend a lot of time driving them to soccer and things like that, is not necessarily like glamorous things, instead, but like I love that I get to be there with them and uh do all these other things. So that was the hardest lesson, is that um the only person responsible for my time and how I use it is me. And if I want to find more balance, that's on that's on me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jane Curtis:That's such an important point that you made about our identity and like how we view ourselves in relation to our work and our profession. And um, I had this big hang up around, and I mean it's still there, it's not like it's not like I've cured it. Um, but you know, this kind of good girl person. Like I have to always say yes, I'm gonna disappoint people if I say no, or yeah, people are gonna be cross with me. Like there's it runs really kind of quite deep, but um that really reared its head when I went um uh set up, you know, self-employed and um it it was yeah, took a lot of unpicking. I'm still doing it, as I say. Um yeah, and I I liked what you said about your new offer because that for me, the kind of the mental side of moving out of a very often traditional, very regimented kind of like organization, potentially, into where you have the freedom and flexibility, not to just kind of sleepwalk and take all of those kind of practices with you and um really think about it as being a kind of reset, you know?
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, um, and it takes practice. Like I would say don't beat yourself up if you're listening, you're like, I do that. I mean, I did it for years and I'm still learning, and it's very, very hard to change how we show up after however many years we've been working in this sector. Like that's just it's it takes work and it takes being intentional and not being perfect at it. And again, it's it's that thing like move into action, try it a little bit, block one afternoon a week or do something, but you only build the muscle by like doing the reps by trying it.
Jane Curtis:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so what advice would you give to someone who hadn't yet left nine to five employment but were thinking about it? What advice would you give?
Cindy Wagman:So there's a few things. The first thing is the most important warm up your network. So especially over the last few years, of people as people have been moving to remote. I know sometimes now they're moving back in person, but your network is where you will find clients. I like a hundred percent, especially at the beginning. You're not marketing. Um, rarely are you speaking at events, like your work is going to come from the people you know in the sector or the people that they know in the sector. So warm up your network. Don't announce you're leaving, but just grab a coffee without. Person you really liked working with three jobs ago and see what's up with them. So that's the biggest thing is um warming up your network because when you are ready, they will be the ones who you sort of like activate to find work. Um run your numbers. I'm like uh personally, I find a lot of I feel very safe when I can see numbers and see how things roll out. So I'm very in my like cash flow projections and stuff like that. It makes me feel more comfortable. Not everyone thinks of themselves as money people or numbers people, but still know your numbers. Know what your cash flow was gonna look like, how long you can go without uh clients. Check your contracts, right? Can you do, can you take on a contract on top of your full-time work? A lot of people I know they don't give notice until they've actually already confirmed at least one client and have started doing some client work. So if you can do that contractually, that is an amazing way to leave. It's gonna be busy for a little while because you're doing a lot of work. But um, if you can do that, it's great. Um, and prioritize, like figure out what's important to you. Because at the end of the day, the reason we all do this is because we want to create a business in life that we aspire towards. And you have your own priorities, we have our own seasons that we go through in our lives, right? Like when my kids were young, it was a priority for me to go on class field trips and stuff like that. Now my son will murder me if I volunteer for a class to class field trip. He's like, Mom, you're so embarrassing. So, like priorities change, but I I end work early on um every day so that I can take them to soccer. So I always like we always talk about comparison, and comparison is like the thief of joy. So focus on what you want, what you need right now out of consulting, and try quiet the rest of the noise out there.
Jane Curtis:Nice. Yeah, I love those tips. Thank you. Um, so just sort of beginning to think about your network. What networks would you, and obviously I appreciate you're in Canada, but like what networks would you recommend for people to perhaps start, you know, outside of their own um communities that they could then uh start leaning into and and to talk about your podcast at this point.
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, yeah. So, well, okay, you're also gonna be first to hear that um my confessions podcast that I co-host with Jess, we're actually winding down. Oh. I know. So we just recorded an episode explaining why. Um one of the reasons is it's not fully aligned with what my business is anymore, and because there are other amazing resources out there like this one. And so um we are winding down that podcast, but I still have Fracture, um, which is the podcast for fractionals. Um but there are so many great, okay, so there's different buckets of how I would think of your network. So there are the other consultants, and there's lots of communities where there's this real sense of abundance, and you know, people are referring clients to each other and all of that. So your work, um, Jess, my former co-host of Confessions, she has a community called Build Better Together. Um, and there it's fantastic. Uh nonprofit.ist, so nonprofitist, consultants for good. My friend Camila Martin has one called Catalyst. Um, there is another um Mandy. I'm totally blanking out her name right now. I'm so sorry, Mandy. Um, she has a community, so there's lots of spaces to connect with other consultants. Um, I would also look at local um local sort of organizations like AFP is big in North America. I don't think it's as big in not as big. Yeah. Um, but things like that. Yeah. Um, but honestly, those are secondary because those people don't know you.
Jane Curtis:Yeah.
Cindy Wagman:The people who know your work, the people who have seen your ability to do good things for organizations are going to be the strongest advocates for you. So what I usually advise, I give like a little um, this is how I in my program, how I get people to warm up their network, because oftentimes they're coming to me feeling very burnt out, very disillusioned about our sector, and it feels really sucky. Um and they lack motivation because of it. So what I say is like reach out to the people who make you feel good about our sector again. Reach out to the folks who are like, oh, I love spending time with you, or like that was so nice. Don't worry about if they know potential clients for you. Don't worry about if they um have like if they're a client or not. Like, just surround yourself with people who give you hope and optimism for our sector. And if you can do that, that's gonna be really motivating and it will get you excited about talking about your work. There's lots I could say about like messaging and stuff like that, which is also really critical. I feel like we don't have time for that, but I will recommend a book, Building a Story Brand. Oh, yeah. Like the like I go back to that framework. I think I've got it. Yeah, yeah. Like I can't even tell you how many times I have used that and recommended that. To me, it is just the necessary shift most people need to understand how to message their work properly. So warm up your network, read the story brand book, and um, or like they have lots of other resources. Uh, but surround yourself with the people who bring you joy in our sector because we need that motivation, we need to feel good.
Jane Curtis:We do, we so do. Um uh okay, just as we're finishing up, I'd just like to know a little fun, fun question. But um, what do you do to kind of energize yourself when you're having a bit of a kind of crappy day or whatever? Like what would be what would be your thing?
Cindy Wagman:So um I like to if it it depends on the kind of crappy day I'm having. Um I find like when I feel run down, I just embrace it. Like I will just take a day and I'll be like, I'm not getting out of bed. I mean, obviously get out of bed, but like I'll have a nap in the afternoon or something like that. I find I can come out of I can come out of it much faster if I just let it be for a day. Um that's really I'm trying to think of like other rough days that I've had. Oh, the other thing that's come up recently, which I give advice I give to myself and my students, is give yourself space between something happening and how you react to it.
Jane Curtis:Oh, yeah.
Cindy Wagman:That has been a life lesson because I feel like I always I feel like we're always taught to like you have to respond in the moment and da-da-da. So no, take your time and even with clients, like I just had this conversation with our with our network. Um, someone was feeling frustrated that their client was like asking for too much or or you know, should we do this, should we do that? Like constantly sort of pushing on scope. And it's really hard in that moment to not say yes because that's how we've been trained to behave. So instead of just like trying to say no, I said just try give yourself space. Say, you know what, that's interesting. I'm gonna think about it before I give you an answer. And to me, that gives me that helps take me out of the urgency of whatever is causing that stress.
Jane Curtis:Yeah.
Cindy Wagman:Um, so that I have the time and space to think about it strategically and meaningfully, and then respond how I want to respond. Yeah. So that's another little trick that I've really had to learn because it does not come naturally to me. Um, and I also it comes up a lot with my clients.
Jane Curtis:Yeah, nice. And I think that could be applied to lots of things, couldn't it? Like an angry text message with your partner or like don't respond in the moment, give it a bit of time. Um, no, that's brilliant. Thank you so much, Cindy. How can um people find out a bit more about you and your work and your offers if they wish to?
Cindy Wagman:Yeah. So the best way is to subscribe to my private podcast. If you're listening to this, chances are you're podcast listeners. So it's nonprofitfractionals.com slash fracture.
Jane Curtis:Okay.
Cindy Wagman:Um, or find me on LinkedIn at Cindy Wagman. And yeah, that's those are I'm always happy to chat.
Jane Curtis:Amazing. Oh, thank you so much for your time. We have gone a little bit longer than I thought, but it was just too good. I didn't want to like interrupt below. It's so so interesting. Um, so thank you so much and um wish you all the best with everything that's coming up for you. You've got an exciting few months.
Cindy Wagman:Yeah, busy and exciting, but um I I love it. So um I'm so grateful to be here. Thanks for having me.
Jane Curtis:Oh, you're really welcome. Thank you. That's a wrap on another episode of the other side. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a colleague who might be thinking about their own freelance journey. And if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Remember, freelancing doesn't have to be a lonely journey. Whether it's joining communities like the Charity Freelancer Chat or signing up to the Charity Freelancing course or simply reaching out to former colleagues, connection is key to thriving as a freelancer. You can find all the links and resources we mentioned today in the show notes. And if you want to connect with me, you can find me on LinkedIn where you can also sign up to the charity freelancing course wait list. Until next time, keep exploring what's possible on the other side.