Michelle Stein - Your Fundraising Skills Become Your Business Systems

You can be brilliant at fundraising and still feel stuck when it comes to going self-employed. I sit down with Michelle Stein, founder of Handmade Fundraising, to unpack what it really looks like to move from senior charity roles into a thriving fundraising consultancy.

We get into the practicalities of treating business development like major gift fundraising: setting clear income targets, planning out your pipeline, and focusing on the actions you can control. Michelle talks us through how she structures her time, why she keeps a dedicated day for sales and marketing activities, and how boundaries are essential to protect your energy and income.

We delve into the messy stuff: the fear of making the leap, the impact of a toxic work environment, and the mindset shift from being subcontracted to owning your positioning. Michelle shares a handy pricing resource she wishes she had from day one, including a method for setting a day rate based on real capacity and costs. Finally, we look into AI and what it could mean for nonprofit consultants, plus some ways to future-proof your work.

If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe, share it with a colleague who's considering freelancing, and leave a review to help more charity professionals find the show.

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You can connect with Michelle on LinkedIn or head to her website at handmadefundraising.com.

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Jane Curtis, founder of The Charity Freelancing Course, host of The Other Side Podcast and Co-founder of The Rich & Restored Retreat. 

Jane has spent 26 years in the charity sector, is a former events fundraiser, and now supports well over 100 charity sector freelancers to replace their in house salary without working 24/7 through a group mastermind programme, charity freelancing course and 1:1 work. 

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Welcome And What To Expect

Jane Curtis 0:26

Welcome to the other side, the charity freelancers podcast. I'm Jane Curtis and this is where we explore the journey from charity professional to thriving freelancer or business owner. Each week I chat with individuals who've made this a leap from the charity sector, sharing invaluable practical tips and incredible insights firsthand. So whether you're considering making the move or you're already on your freelance journey or you're just nosy and want to know what goes on behind the scenes of well-known freelance businesses, you're in the right place. So grab a coffee, settle in, and let's dive into today's conversation.

Meet Michelle Stein

Jane Curtis 1:00

Today we're joined by Michelle Stein. After senior fundraising roles at the British Museum and WaterAid, Michelle started her consultancy, Handmade Fundraising, as a side project in 2016 while still working full-time. In 2021, she took the leap into full-time freelancing and now works with non-profits globally on major gift fundraising strategy and has trained over 4,500 fundraisers worldwide. Michelle, welcome to the other side.

Michelle Stein 1:28

Thank you, Jane. It's lovely

From Trusts To Major Gifts

Michelle Stein 1:30

to be here.

Jane Curtis 1:31

Thank you. I'd love to know first of all a little bit about your charity background. So I mentioned uh water aid in the British Museum. Could you just expand on that a little bit for us?

Michelle Stein 1:42

Sure. So I started my career as a trust fundraiser and then worked my way into Major Gifts, which is where I gained most of my experience. And then my last in-house role, I was heading up a team looking after corporates and trusts and foundations and major donors. So anything with relationship development at its core.

Starting A Side Project Safely

Jane Curtis 2:07

And you were still working full-time when you decided to set up handmade fundraising as a side project. Tell me about that. What was the kind of impetus or the driver for doing that?

Michelle Stein 2:20

The thing that I really loved the most is to deliver training. And I wanted to find a way to deliver training, but still have the security of my full-time role. So I started looking for ways that I could deliver training outside of my job. And that's when I set it up handmade fundraising as my side project. I did work for a company called Charity How To. They're based in the US. And at the time, they were one of the few companies delivering online training. And I was working for them as a trainer in the evenings because of the time difference. So it meant that I could deliver training, but then still keep my full-time job. And so that's what I did in the beginning. And if there were any other opportunities to deliver training, that's what I did alongside my work.

Jane Curtis 3:22

And was it with a view of going fully self-employed at that point? Or was it just that you just love doing it and you just wanted more of it?

Michelle Stein 3:32

No, I didn't think that I could, I couldn't imagine myself self-employed. So I think that this was just to satisfy that passion that I had and the thing that I really loved to do. I'd I maybe part of me I really did want to do it, but I just couldn't see a way that I would be able to do it on my own or what that would look like. So this was a way to try it out. And I did try out to be self-employed at a few different stages in between roles. And sometimes I would have a project or two, but then, for example, one time I took on a piece of work, it led into an interim role, and then I applied for the full-time role and I stayed on as a full-time employee. So I it was stops and starts to try to get there. Um I probably just didn't have a roadmap of how to do it and the confidence to do it, but it I knew that it was something that I did want to do.

Early Online Training Lessons

Jane Curtis 4:31

Yeah. And 2016, that I mean, that's really ahead of the curve in terms of the online trading world, I guess. Like there can't be many people doing it in that way back then, I'm guessing.

Michelle Stein 4:42

No, yes, really, really um unique at the time, and also a very strange setup because we I couldn't see the participants. I knew how many people were online, but I can't remember what tech we were using. I would just be talking to a blank screen and hopefully people would be there, but there was no kind of chat functionality, there was no, there was no video camera. So I and they were looking at just a slide deck that I was putting up. So definitely ahead of the curve, and um, and I was very fortunate to be part of it, but uh I wouldn't say it was the most interactive training.

Jane Curtis 5:26

No, well, but I mean my gosh, that is so... isn't it fascinating that in 10 years that has just so become the norm now. We're so used to using Zoom and Teams and the idea of not being able to use something like that. I mean, it might be was it Skype, maybe? Was that a video game?

Michelle Stein 5:41

No, I can't remember if they had their own platform or something that they used. Um, I can't remember. All I know is that um that I was just like talking into this void, and then I had to wait until the end for people to give their feedback. So it was only after the end of the workshop that I would find out if it landed or not. No way to check in on energy during the session.

Jane Curtis 6:04

Oh wow, my gosh. But great, amazing experience um for you, I'm sure. Like a steep

Running Your Business Like Fundraising

Jane Curtis 6:10

learning curve. Um what do you think your charity roles taught you about working for yourself when you did go sort of fully, you fully jumped in with both feet?

Michelle Stein 6:22

I think that because my charity role was that of a fundraiser and one that's a relationship-focused fundraiser, everything that I now teach my clients, I have to do for myself and my business. Although it's taken me a while to internalise it and realise that's what I have to do. But I realise that the way that I run my business is everything that I need to do as a major gift fundraiser. And that means um everything from um how I budget. So I I what I tell my clients is that they have three different budget scenarios that they they have to set up. What is your survival number? What is your sustainable number? What is your dream number? I have I do that for myself every year at the beginning of the year. What do I need to get by? What is their Lord of Wiggle room? What is it, what is that number if I want to dream big? Then I have to create, you know, my gift table equivalent. So I need to work backwards and think how many prospects do I need to speak to? What existing business do I have? Where's the the gap? Um, so I'm thinking about it in a very systematic way, in the same way that I did when I was a major gift fundraiser. And that process of business development apply to my to my fundraising. I have I have to have a pipeline. That pipeline has to be worth much more than what my income target is. So, how many conversations I'm having? How can I fill that pipeline? What is the value of the proposals that I'm sending out? How can I engage with people? I have going back to what I have, my mindset as a major gift fundraiser, I've a little, I have very little control over whether someone says yes or no, but I do have control over having those conversations, building relationships. Um and then once someone has become a client of mine, how do I then make sure that they are stewarded and looked after so that they feel valued and I can continue to engage with them? Um and then now that I've worked quite a lot and I'm trying to focus a bit more on trying to get in front of invite-only funders, the things that I again teach in that train is exactly what I tell myself. I have to be visible in the places where my clients are visible. I have to be using LinkedIn, I have to have credibility, and my positioning has to be right so that when someone lands on my website or my LinkedIn page, they know exactly what I do and they can understand if we would be a good fit. So all those things, the stuff that I learned as a fundraiser has put me in good stead. All the things that I've learned with my clients now about how they are getting in front of invite-only funders and which I now teach is what I'm telling myself every single day.

Handling Rejection And Staying Resilient

Jane Curtis 9:15

Oh, I love that. And then I mean, I hear this quite often from fundraisers who've moved into uh freelancing or or consultancy, that um there's something around that kind of resilience as well, that we have quite thick skin, and you know, that perhaps we don't take those kind of rejections or those no's as personally, you know, perhaps we pick we've built up that, you know, either we're either we're born is innate or we're bought, you know, we we kind of learn it as we go. Um, and I and I wonder if that if you've kind of recognised that in yourself as well, that you kind of don't take that no, or that, you know, if a client says no or you get you get rejected or ghosted, you know, sometimes you don't hear anything at all, that you don't take it as a kind of personal attack.

Michelle Stein 9:59

Um I still it still hurts a bit if you don't hear from someone, but I would say I don't have the same, um, yes, I don't feel it so personally like like it's like it's something against me and recognising that you know budgets change and priorities change, and you're not the number one priority for someone when they've got a whole long list of things to do. Right. Um, those are all things that I remember. It's so in that way, I suppose I don't take I don't take those no's so personally. And I am always looking, okay, it might not be the right fit, let's move on to the next one and making sure how's my pipeline looking? How can I how can I make sure that that number I've got two to three times more in the pipeline than I do on my in my budget? So those are all the things that I suppose I'm thinking about. It's always like, what's the next thing that I need to be doing?

Jane Curtis 10:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Um, and it sounds like you've got an amazing kind of structure there, you know, really um allows you to kind of flow, you know, like a foundation that gives you that kind of structure. I I really I really appreciate hearing about that. And I've made some notes myself.

A Typical Week And Boundaries

Jane Curtis 11:14

Um, could you talk me through um if there is such a thing as a typical week in your business, like how does your week, a typical week, look?

Michelle Stein 11:24

I um so I have different uh work approaches. Uh it is very dependent on the season. So in summer I go every morning uh swimming at a tidal pool, um, and in winter I'll go walking on the mountain. Uh, but either way, I'll start typically around 10 or 10:30 after I've been out in nature. And then Monday to Thursday looks quite similar. So I'll be um working with clients. I work a lot on fundraising strategy and cases for support. So that would be um having meetings with clients, other stakeholders, um, uh funders of those clients, doing a lot of writing, thinking, putting together documents. So that's Monday to Thursday. And then Friday, I like to keep things a little bit more flexible. So I tend to use Fridays for any appointments or errands that I need to do in my life. I'll try and batch those all on a Friday morning. And I also keep Fridays for my business development day, even though realistically I am doing business development every single day of the week. Um, but Fridays is my big business development day where I'm looking at writing my LinkedIn posts, um, my newsletter, um, looking at my pipeline again, seeing if there's specific actions that need to go out. I try and um do all my business development calls on a Friday. So I typically only allow for uh prospective clients to book time with me on a Friday. It just is a way to um keep boundaries around my time. And so then I'm doing all those calls on Fridays and doing the proposals for for potential clients then, and that's how I like to structure my work. Not to say it always goes that way, but that's typically how I run my week.

Jane Curtis 13:27

That's that's really interesting. I um I used to like keep Friday completely free. I've noticed that my boundaries have started like getting a bit blurry, and I perhaps need to revisit that. So going into my second half of uh as we record this, we're in June, so um thinking sorry, July, thinking about the next six months. Um yeah, and I that that's that's so interesting to hear that you keep your keep that one day really sort of structured. Um yeah, it's something for me to think about

The Leap To Full Time Freelancing

Jane Curtis 13:58

for sure. Um can you share a couple of challenges that you faced as a business owner?

Michelle Stein 14:04

Um I think the first the biggest challenge was actually deciding to go full-time as a freelancer. Um, I found it very difficult to make the leap. And at the time I was working, and I I should say um I had gained most of my in-house experience as you mentioned. I gained it in the UK, and then I wanted to return to South Africa, which is where I'm from, in 2019. And I knew that my career wouldn't, I wouldn't have the same opportunities because the sector here is just not as sophisticated and I wouldn't have the diversity of options when it came to um full-time roles. But I did make the move in October of 2019. I moved back to Cape Town and I got an in-house role, and it just so happened that it was a very toxic work environment, and it wasn't, and I was very, very unhappy. Uh and but I felt so stuck because I didn't know what my next move would look like. And I did want to go um freelance, but just wasn't sure how. And it was only because um of a combination of COVID and then um my very dear friend, who's also an amazing fundraising coach and consultant, Anna Scheinman, she said to me, uh, you know, I think this this was in uh 2021, she said, well, now your your dream has come true because everyone's moved online, so you can now do work for clients outside of South Africa and but still live in Cape Town. And it was because of her and her pushing me that I then moved full-time. She lined me up with my first client because she was working for a client and doing a piece of work and they wanted something else done, and which she didn't want to do, so she said, Here you can do this work. And then she had been sent an RFP by someone else, and she said, Here you can apply for this because she didn't want to do it. And really, someone pushing me and kind of handing me my first couple of clients because I got that RFP as well, it really made such a difference. Um, and then I, you know, kind of luck or chance, I she said, Anna said to me, Post on the freelancers, UK freelancers group on Facebook. And I did that, I had availability. And um Jodie Jones, who is also another amazing consultant who runs the social good network, she saw that I was available and she was doing a piece of work for a client that was um that was the client was based in Africa. So she connected with me and I got another piece of work from her and then subsequently worked with her for a number of years. Um she subcontracted to me. So it was that push to go full-time that really, really helped me, and that I had definitely Anna in my corner who was backing me and handed me my clients. So that I think that was the first challenge that I needed to overcome was getting in front, was just making the move. And the second big challenge was probably around business development and the mind shift that I needed to make to move to to work more as a major gifts fundraiser. Um, because I, for the first couple of years of freelancing, I was subcontracted to, primarily by um Jody at the Social Good Network. And I worked on some amazing projects with wonderful clients and learned so much from Jody. Um, but I also it the being subcontracted to all the time just messed with me a bit because it made me feel that people like the business development side was very difficult for me. You know, people were buying into the social good network, they weren't they weren't getting work because of me. And at the start of 2025, I worked with a coach on that mindset piece to get me out of this idea that I couldn't do business development, that I needed to be subcontracted to, and that I needed to get my systems in place like a major gift fundraiser to make business development work and not to be afraid to um to go out there and make myself visible. So those I think were the two biggest challenges that I've faced and which I've overcome.

Consistency And Conversation As Strategy

Jane Curtis 19:15

Amazing. Um and that leads really nicely into my next question, which is what do you think your secret to success is? If there is a secret, what would it be?

Michelle Stein 19:27

Um there's absolutely no secret. I am just trying to, I'd say consistency. I'm just doing it over and over and over again. So even when on the days when things don't go so well, or I get no's or the LinkedIn posts don't get any reach, or no one is you know, uh subscribing to my newsletter, then I'm just you gotta pick yourself up and you gotta do it again and again and again, and that consistency is key. And then also um is so that uh yeah, that consistency piece is is I won't say a secret, um, but it does uh help. Um and the other piece that I think is around success is um having as many conversations as possible with people in your networks, outside of your networks. That has definitely when I've seen the most success in my business, is when I have taken a risk to find out about other people, be curious, particularly um grow my network with other consultants, uh learn about their business models, and that's and I love learning, and running my business has been so fun to learn different skills and try out different things, and I've learned how to build a website and write a newsletter and um so and work out how to connect Stripe to my website and things which I'd never done before, and that has been um so I enjoy that, but I've learned that from other people. So continuously having a mind uh you know, the mindset of I'm learning all the time, I am trying to find out new things, what's happening, what's what are other people doing? And I can only know that by being in networks and to having conversations, especially because I feel quite isolated. Um, I'm not meeting a lot of other consultants, although I have there's a a small group of us here in Cape Town that we do try to well have conversations with them and we try and meet as regularly as possible, but I feel a bit isolated. So I'm always having to wear how can I connect with people? Outside of South Africa, who can share how their business is doing and share their models and what's working and not. So I can learn from that and apply to my own business.

Jane Curtis 22:10

Yeah. I I mean, I think community and having that sort of network is so, so important, isn't it? It's really hard to do this alone, really hard, you know, for all the reasons you've sort of already mentioned, and you know, that confidence and that self-belief, which is so it's makes up such a huge part of going working for yourself. And um, you know, without that, really, it's you never get off the starting block, would you? Because it'd just be constant doubt about everything that you do. Um, so having those networks, I think is so, so

Communities That Keep You Going

Jane Curtis 22:43

important. Um, tell me more about the kind of communities and the support that you have found useful um since being self-employed.

Michelle Stein 22:52

Well, the one that I've just mentioned, so there's a there's a small group of us of uh consultants who are either they in Cape Town or around Cape Town, although one's based in Zambia and we all run in consultancy businesses. We try and get together when everyone is in town. So that's the one, and I get a lot of referral work from those individuals and I refer work to them. So that's my one network that I really appreciate. Um, I'm also part of a paid network called Build Better Together. This is run by Jess Campbell and it's out of the US, so it's mainly US consult um American and Canadian consultants, although there are a couple of people like myself. There's one person based in Spain, there's another person based in Japan, and it's a Slack community where people can post ideas, ask questions, advice, uh, partner, share job opportunities, and there's a monthly call to where we can all come together and also ask advice and share ideas. So I'm part of that paid network and I found it very helpful, particularly because the American consultants are very ambitious and the what they charge is very different to what UK consultants charge. And I know it's a different market, so you can't compare, but I am really inspired by people's ambition and how much money they're making and um and the systems that they have in place and the kind of niche uh services that they can provide because of the size of their market. So really enjoy that community. I mentioned Anna Scheinman, who I speak to once, if not twice a week. We speak about our personal life because we're friends, but we also spend a lot of time on business stuff, and so she is um such a huge, a helpful coach to me and a friend. Um, I speak a lot to Jody Jones that I mentioned. She's so helpful. So for any kind of business advice. And if I've I've had a few situations with really sticky and tricky clients, like the actual work itself, and I always appreciate getting her as a sounding board for what I should do next. I um also like being part of the UK, the fundraising freelancer UK Facebook group, and I and I learn a lot from that. And through that, I've tried to engage with other consultants and hear what their business is like. And although this is not a community as such, I try, I've I love listening to your podcast, which I find, you know, listening to how people run their businesses, Craig and Bethany and Rob, just so interesting, the different models that you can have and the US equivalent of your podcast, which has now stopped, which it was called Confessions, um, which I but there's a lot of um there's there's a all the old episodes are still there. So I love listening to those to see how people have set up their business and learning from people through that podcast, even though some of it is quite old by now.

Jane Curtis 26:11

Yeah, I I I wholeheartedly agree just hearing things and like from different countries as well, like you said about the US market, it's um it just takes those blinkers off, doesn't it? Of like there's only one way to do things. And I think, especially if you've been in the charity sector or any sector, like any corporate sector, whatever, but you know, you've been really entrant entrench entrenched, entrance. I can't remember the word, but you know, if you've been really in that, um, it's easy to think that's just the way it is. And then you come out and it's like, oh my god, there's this whole world of doing things differently. And um, and just being absorbed into that kind of conversation and that sort of narrative. I love the fact that you mentioned the money um mindset piece there as well. You know, that that is a huge thing that I find with clients that I work with and with my own personal work as well. Um, it's so, so different, and um, and there's a lot of unlearning and a lot of unpicking that needs to be done as well. Um yeah, I I I really uh I really resonate with with what a lot of what you said.

Pricing Advice And The Day Rate Method

Jane Curtis 27:15

Um, so with the benefit of what you know now, what advice would you have given yourself at the start of your freelance career or self-employment? What would you what advice would you give yourself?

Michelle Stein 27:29

Probably the two biggest things, or the one piece of advice which I would give to anyone who's also a new consultant, um, including I would have given myself, is I always tell someone to buy the book, I think it's free money by a guy called Austin L. Church. And he is part of a free, he runs a freelancer network. It's called Freelance Cake. Um, it's also quite a good newsletter. And um, in that book, he sets out how to price yourself. And I think that that was it's the way that he sets it out is so useful because he helps you go step by step to think about how you what your expenses are, what your income needs to be, and then just gives you some pointers for things I wouldn't have even thought about to help you come up with what your day rate is. And then his book goes into moving now that you know what your day rate is, how you can then move it into a project rate. But that book, I wish that I had got that at the very start because I don't find the, you know, when you go onto a forum and people ask, like, what are people charging these days for I don't know, grant writer, strategy consultant? And it's not helpful because it's not what is gonna be right for you. And Austin really explains it very well step by step, how to find the day rate that's based on your specific circumstances, um, based on how many days you want to work, how many hours, are you gonna take a full summer holiday? Are you how many weeks are you gonna take, all that kind of stuff that I find I found so useful. So that would be my first piece of advice is to read that book, work out what the day rate is that you really need to earn, and then because from your what what your income target is, everything else flows. And the second piece is to just try and speak to as many other consultants as possible. Um for networking purposes, for learning, to see how you can support each other, um, what in what ways you could help them, in what ways they could help you. Um, I think that the more that you can find hear from others how they run their business and what's worked for them, um, the stronger you the more things that you can just take on board. Not to say that everything is going to be applicable to you, but it's I wish that I probably had had more conversations with other consultants at the beginning to maybe pause a bit and think, how could I run things? And yes, a lot of it is learned through doing it and making mistakes, but there's also a piece around um realizing that there's not only one way to do something and um and taking that on board and and creating a business that's going to work for you.

Jane Curtis 30:35

I I love the sign of that book. I've never even heard of it.

Michelle Stein 30:37

So tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me the author's name again. His name is Austin, as in the city in Texas, A-U-S-T-I-N, and then it's L as his his middle initial, and the surname is Church. Um he says that he uses the middle initial because otherwise you will, if you you know, think of the Austin Church, yeah, you would get a lot of Austin churches. Um, but uh yeah, Austin L Church and the newsletter is freelance cake, I think it is, and um and he's all about freelancers. So not everything is exactly going to apply to the nonprofit sector, but I found that at least his methodology for working out your day rate so useful. And you can buy it on Kindle. I think it was 10 pounds, so it's really not a huge investment.

Jane Curtis 31:29

I um I do obviously do a lot of well, not obviously, but I do a lot of work with kind of money mindset and and with with my clients, and um I love the point that you mentioned there about the benchmarking, and you know, that really does come with a big word of warning that if you're looking at those forums, Facebook groups, whatever, where people are writing what their going rate is, and uh, this just it's not helpful. I and I just want to underline what you just said, it really is just proceed with caution, I would say, to any any new freelancers what you're looking at that and thinking that's how you should be basing your prices. Um so fantastic. Thank you.

Michelle Stein 32:06

And that's what I think that Austin does well, is to help you think that, well, especially when you're starting out and you think, okay, well, if I'm gonna charge this day rate, this is how much money I'm going to make. And it all sounds very exciting, but actually, he helps you think that you can't work every single day full-time on a project. You have to build in business development, you have to build an admin. So you're likely going to have to, you your working days are much less than you think you're going to have. And that means that what you have to charge has to be so much more. And then add on what all your expenses are going to be, and all your Zoom and Calendly and Canva and emails and all these subscriptions do add up. So all that has to be taken off. So I've just that way of thinking around it and not, as you said, just okay, well, everyone else in this group is charging this amount of money per day. That's what I have to charge. But actually, how much how much how many working days am I going to have each year for actual client work versus business development? And then what are my expenses versus other, you know, what your expenses are going to be different to someone else.

Jane Curtis 33:18

Yeah. And, you know, all of their kind of money confidence and money psychology as well that feeds into that, you know. And if you've never looked at any of that stuff that's going on under the surface, you have no idea what what perspective that person is seeing things through, you know, like we can't possibly know that. So um, yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I'm I'm definitely 100% gonna read that book.

AI And The Future Of Consulting

Jane Curtis 33:44

Um, so last question I would like to ask you is just what change do you think we'll see um in the sector uh over the next year? Like, do you have any kind of insights or thoughts around that?

Michelle Stein 33:58

I suppose my biggest one, which is probably not a new thing, and this is mainly from the consultant's perspective, is that um AI is going to really change what the consultant world looks like, and it's doing it already. And I think that what it means is that um the bottom of the market is going to be completely wiped out. If anything that you do that AI can now do for your clients, I'm not saying for a client who has a lot of resources, they probably won't change and they will employ an individual. But if someone who an organisation that has very limited resources, they will probably just use AI to do what you could do if there's no specific niche or angle or something different that you are bringing to the interaction. And I think about this a lot. I'm I there's still a huge question mark over how I future-proof my business. Um, I love delivering online training, and I see that as really something that I can't read in five years' time. I don't know if online training will even exist. I know that you ask them for what in the next year, but I'm thinking over the next five years, why would someone have a human when you will, everyone will be able to engage with their own learning program with an AI chatbot, and it will be much quicker and more much cheaper. So those are things that I'm thinking about, and I think which is really going to change. And when I look at the US and I see what consultants are doing there, I see that some of some consultants are moving into product development around AI. And so I wonder if that's the the way that people are future, the the more obvious way to future proof, although it's not, I have no interest in creating an AI product. But I see that um, but I see a few consultants there who've moved into that space and have done it successfully. So just thinking about how AI is going to replace some consultants, particularly at the lower end of the market. I mentioned this, I had a call with um Bill Bruty um a few weeks ago, and we're talking about training. He also delivers online training. And I said to him, like, Am I going to be retraining as a hairdresser? You know, go do something with my hands. I'm not really sure. Um, I know some people feel that what I'm saying is too pessimistic, but the speed at which the technology is changing and which it will become so much cheaper for someone to use uh one of those products uh can't be ignored. So I'm definitely this year for me has been really, although I hate that I like niching into a specific um area, which is um it's it's an experiment. I'm seeing how I can focus more on um content, which is about getting organisations in front of invite-only funders, and I'm seeing how that resonates and if I can deliver that through training or consultancy. And I'm hoping that that is one way that I can offset some of that um AI creep. Um, but I certainly don't have the answers, but I also see it a lot.

Jane Curtis 37:33

Yeah. I I I'm wondering whether things are just gonna become kind of sort of full full cycle, you know, full circle where we just, I don't know, in a couple of years, like there'll just be this big sort of uh oh, what's the words I'm looking for? Almost like a kind of anti-AI, you know, like actually like the era of the human, and like how can we have just more human like people are gonna almost just um refuse that as a kind of type of technology, and that I mean I you all almost all already see how fast-paced it's been that it explodes, you know, this huge explosion, everyone jumps on it. But actually, you're already beginning to see a bit of kind of backlash towards towards it, and um yeah, I mean, I I don't think it can ever replace this, what we're doing now, like this human to human connection. So um, and I'm really sort of feeling myself that real um pull towards more in-person, like that energy that you get from just being in a room with other people, and um yeah, like the good old days.

Michelle Stein 38:41

I completely agree with you, Jane. I I also see that if you having in-person training, that to me makes sense because you can't replace that with AI. My business model is I do most of my training online because there's just not the market here in South Africa for the work that I'm doing. Yeah, so my clients are global, and so I need to think what is my business model going to be so that I can be in person. But I I see it also with uh my clients, and donors are looking for ways to connect. You have the loneliness epidemic, you have a desire for in-person, you have a desire for novelty, and experiences, which my clients are trying to take advantage of. And so I agree with you. I think that there will be a desire for human engagement, but I just wonder if that's going to only sit with organisations that are very well resourced versus at the lower end of the market, they'll just take AI.

Jane Curtis 39:47

It's so interesting. I love it. This conversation, it's uh fascinating. And and where we get to kind of lean into it and where what we how we can kind of pivot and and evolve our services as well, um, as part

Where To Find Michelle And Closing

Jane Curtis 40:01

of it. Um, so how can the listeners get more of you, Michelle, and find out more about your services?

Michelle Stein 40:07

Um, they're welcome to check out my website, which is handmadefundraising.com, or to connect with me on LinkedIn.

Jane Curtis 40:16

Amazing. I did check out your website and I love the design of it. It's very mid-century modern. Has anyone else told you that? It's got a real mid-century kind of aesthetic. I really like it.

Michelle Stein 40:27

Oh, thank you. It's something that I love to do, and I like I said, I I one of the skills that I learned was how to build a website. Um, so I've enjoyed, I enjoy all the creative side of the business. If if I could just play around with my website and design funding proposals, um, I would be happy. Uh so it's it's nice to hear that.

Jane Curtis 40:47

Thank you. Well, there you go. That's always another string to your bow. You don't have to become a hairdresser. You could design people's websites. It's beautiful. Um, thank you so much for joining us today, Michelle. I've really enjoyed this chat.

Michelle Stein 41:01

Likewise, thanks, Jane, for having me.

Jane Curtis 41:04

And that's a wrap on another episode of The Other Side. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a colleague who might be thinking about their own freelance journey or leave a review. And if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. You can find all the links and resources we mentioned today in the show notes. If you're looking to replace your 9 to 5 salary without working 24-7, check out my website janecurtisevents.com, where you can sign up to weekly tips and tricks to help you earn more doing work you love. That's janecurtisevents.com. Until next time, keep exploring what's possible on the other side, and we're going to be able to do that.